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I had participated in the launch of the

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other launch vehicle and being on the

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Marshall team obviously once the the

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crew was in orbit we'd kind of finished

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our launch exercises and got to come

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home

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I was actually back in Huntsville at the

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time of the of the landing and watched

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it all as it was happening on on

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television it was certainly to say it

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was exciting would be a total

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understatement of the fact I think that

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one of the things that I do remember

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very vividly well soon after the landing

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walking out and looking at the moon and

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and knowing that there were people there

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that that I had known knowing that I had

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had a opportunity to participate in that

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program from literally from the very

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beginning of it up to that point in time

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and looking at the moon and knowing that

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was probably one of the most humbling

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experiences that I can recall ever

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having because it was a not only a sense

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of personal satisfaction it was a sense

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of I think also national pride that all

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of us that were associated with that

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program were needless to say you were

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very pleased with at the time and I

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at the time the of the lunar landing I

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was associated with the Apollo launch

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vehicle here at Marshall more

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specifically I was in charge of

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engineering and testing from the project

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office side of the second stage which

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was built by rock wall out in Seal Beach

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California I had been through the early

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development of that that launch vehicle

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the early design testing building of the

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flight articles and then the early

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flights of the Apollo vehicle so I had

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seen that the program basically from an

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idea up through the up through those

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when I look back at the that basically

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the industry and the capability that we

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were building at that time and all of

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the infrastructure that that went into

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being able to accommodate the Apollo

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program and namely the facilities the

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manufacturing facilities but also had we

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had the computational capability then we

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have now that job would have been

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significantly easier we might have

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sharpened our pencil too much had we had

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it then we we at Marshall were were

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accused of building our launch vehicles

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much stronger than they needed to be

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that turned out before the Apollo

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program was over to been a real asset

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because we were able to carry heavier

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weights we were ever carry or longer

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vehicles and it made the vehicles

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extremely more more versatile and more

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accommodating to win conditions weather

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conditions and this type today we we

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tend to want to sharpen our pencils

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probably too much but if I look back at

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that point in time we literally were

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having to build the standards the

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equipment that that we were using to

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test in many cases was as complicated as

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was the the parts or the engine

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components or the engines or the

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structural components that we were

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trying to build so there was a lot

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learned because we didn't have all of

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the fine tools we have today and as a as

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a young engineer that was probably the

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best thing could have happened to

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literally hundreds of thousands of us

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around the in the government as well as

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in industry if we happen to build the

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tools as long long worth building the

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products I guess in summary I would say

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I would have loved to have had some of

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the computational tools back then we

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have now back then a freedom was uh was

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uh almost a status symbol and side rules

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I think there were two very fundamental

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things that were that were at work we

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had a national commitment we had a

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congressional commitment and more

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importantly we had a presidential

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commitment the second thing that in my

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judgment made it possible and certainly

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the part that centered here in

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Huntsville was the leadership of dr. von

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Braun

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he was a master leader he was a superb

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engineer he was a visionary and he was a

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probably one of the best technical

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coordinators and that's almost an unfair

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statement to to manage people to manage

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large programs and to assist in the

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management of large contractors the fact

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that we had to literally build an

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industry we had to build a almost a

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complete infrastructure relative to test

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and manufacturing facilities launch

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facilities to be able to do all of that

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in the timeframe that we did it

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was still in my judgment almost a

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significant a feat as the fact of going

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to the moon of just getting all of those

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facilities and all of those teams

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because literally we were building an

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industry a very new industry that had

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only started just a few like 10 to 15

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years earlier than the lunar landing so

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to me those were the key things that had

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to happen and fortunately we had the

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leadership in the country in Congress

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and and in the program with which to to

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make that happen and certainly we had an

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excellent administrator and James Webb

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too to help lead that industrial team

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he was the to me one of the most

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intellectual people but yet one of the

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most real and down-to-earth people I had

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the opportunity to to work with him I

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had the opportunity to travel with him a

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lot and for a young engineer that was in

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his late 20s early 30s at that time

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frame I considered probably one of the

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luckiest probably events of my life was

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being able to to know the man and to

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work for him and to to travel with him

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he loved to fly as much as probably any

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person I've ever seen if he had a second

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hobby short of boating and his family it

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would probably be weather and its

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association with flying I'll never

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forget we were flying back from the west

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coast one time and this was when

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Learjets had just just come out there

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were only a few of them you know in the

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southeast and we had had one we had gone

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to the west coast and back it we had to

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do in a very short time as we were

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flying back we were at about forty

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forty-one thousand feet and we came upon

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an absolute classic anvil cloud and this

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cloud towered probably another eight ten

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thousand feet above us and we just

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circled right around just under the the

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the trailing edge of the anvil of that

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cloud and the two of us at there and he

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gave me a description of every air

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current every phenomena that was going

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on in that particular weather cell he'd

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literally took that cloud that literally

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went all the way from the ground up to

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probably forty-eight forty-nine thousand

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feet and he dissected it vertically and

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then dissected it horizontally and he

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could point it out where the hail was

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being generated in the backside and the

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air currents and how they would sweep

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the rain particles up into the colder

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air and keep that circulation going

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until a large hail was generated and

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then it would fall out to the earth and

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I remember to this day exactly how that

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those weather phenomenons work only

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because that he was such an articulate

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instructor he was articulate and

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literally everything that that he did

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the extreme sense of humor he had a just

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a way of turning tense moments into into

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manageable situations so and and like I

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say he was he was just that relaxed with

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people and I've never seen him look down

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on anyone regardless of the positions

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that work with him he were done he would

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stop and talk to you you would I

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remember even before the Apollo program

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when he and general Medeiros would come

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around through the labs they would walk

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through and he would he loved to stop

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and talk to the people the technicians

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on the floor and as a as a young college

192
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graduate that was impressive to me to

193
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have him to see how warm he was with

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people but yet how genuine he was as a

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it was exhilarating to just work here

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because you just you didn't even think

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about working eight hours a day you just

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worked as long as it took to to do the

199
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job those of us that were young people

200
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there were a few older people and

201
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especially the Germans that we got to

202
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work side-by-side directly with and or

203
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directly under that told us an awful lot

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about solving technical problems about

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dedication to to the job but yet they

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were all very dedicated to their

207
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families and that made a significant

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impression the other thing that I think

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who was significant is the

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responsibilities that were given to each

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of us we were given a job you were

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allowed to make mistakes you were

213
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allowed to fail as long as you learn

214
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from your failures or learn from your

215
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mistakes and then went on and built

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better products as a result of that the

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fact that we had an absolute goal even

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when we were a part of the army

219
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ballistic missile agency in the mid to

220
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late 50s up until the 60s when we moved

221
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over to NASA we knew exactly what our

222
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jobs were we knew what goals we had to

223
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meet when you what schedules we had to

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make and everyone believed in them and

225
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everyone was dedicated to to making it

226
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happen and the German team and and the

227
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leadership of von Braun that just easily

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permeated all levels of the organization

229
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so there was no we didn't have to worry

230
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about how to motivate people they were

231
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absolutely motivated from the top and

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Lambton national top all the way down

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through the von braun team down to those

234
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of us that were turning the cranks and

235
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we created a goal after Apollo 2 to

236
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build a totally reusable launch vehicle

237
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we studied that for a number of years

238
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and a few years and came up with a fully

239
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reusable Space Shuttle we presented that

240
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to Congress and the budget was too high

241
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we cut the budget in half we did away

242
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with the reusable booster and we ended

243
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up with a with a throwaway external tank

244
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and reusable solids and an orbiter as we

245
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we were absolutely aware of Woodstock we

246
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were absolutely aware of the the good

247
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and the bad side of the Vietnam War but

248
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I could not see any deterioration of our

249
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dedication or our ability or our

250
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commitment to make our obligations come

251
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come to fruition like I said we were

252
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quite aware of what was going on in the

253
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personal pride the satisfaction of

254
00:14:19,070 --> 00:14:15,000
seeing a job happen a very difficult job

255
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:19,080
of major undertaking and probably one of

256
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:20,970
the most complex things that man had

257
00:14:29,210 --> 00:14:24,720
done at that time seeing that come to a

258
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:29,220
successful few ition was probably one of

259
00:14:36,110 --> 00:14:31,530
the most exciting things that that I

260
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have been apart to in in my career but

261
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to be almost equal to that was the fact

262
00:14:44,930 --> 00:14:42,570
that we had a national commitment we had

263
00:14:47,770 --> 00:14:44,940
a space race there was no question it

264
00:14:52,580 --> 00:14:47,780
was a race it was one that we were

265
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dedicated to win and did but I think

266
00:14:59,450 --> 00:14:58,140
seeing the nation pull together all the

267
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way from the president through the

268
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Congress the OMB and into the NASA

269
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organizations and all of the industrial

270
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base that supported us in doing that to